healthcare=counselling no icon no text

[thetornado76]

At this node https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1252888814 there is no icon or text.

Please add icon and text for healthcare=counselling similar healthcare=laboratory

[matkoniecz]

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/healthcare=counselling - used just 37 times so lack of rendering it is not too surprising

From

openstreetmap-carto/amenity-points.mss

Line 715 in 4df96c4

it seems to not be on list of rendered tags

[Adamant36]

Maybe it could get a dot at least so the building doesn't look un-tagged or empty (do healthcare objects even have dots? I can't remember).

[wilmaed]

do healthcare objects even have dots?

yep:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5445761071

[Adamant36]

Thanks, I thought they did.

[woodmiser]

I had the same problem a couple days ago. As a workaround, I tagged the place with
amenity=social_facility
social_facility=outreach
social_facility=mental_health
and it gets rendered now. You might consider whether the place you are trying to tag fits that description, and tag it with that temporarily.
Anyway, I just checked taginfo and it is up to 72 now.
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/healthcare=counselling
Also ran an overpass global query, which found 110. So, hopefully this tag will get the attention it need soon.
Cheers

[polarbearing]

Also ran an overpass global query, which found 110

This is incorrect, you were including the nodes in polygons probably.

The counselling value has no wiki page and no proposal. I would expect a healthcare value to describe some therapeutic approach, and not counselling. Among the values I found a WeightWatchers office, which certainly does not fit.

It seems that in indeed 'social facility' would be a better fit in particular in the context of mental health.

I propose to close the issue.

[Adamant36]

I wouldn't call counselling a social facility. 1. Its not really "social" in the context of the tag 2. Places that are just for counselling, including ones made of up a single therapist in an office, aren't "facilities." Also, plenty of people without mental issues go to counselling. So tagging them as "mental_health" places doesn't seem right.

[jeisenbe]

“Counseling” is ambiguous. Some people call treatment by a clinical psychologist “counseling”, but it can also refer to therapy for addictions, marital problems, child behavioral issues and parenting, etc. And as mentioned above, “counseling” can also refer to therapy to help lose weight or improve fitness. I’ve also heard people talk about financial counseling for getting out of debt and spiritual counseling from religious organizations. I would recommend using a more specific tag. Probably this should be discussed on the Tagging mailing list

[matkoniecz]

This tagging is documented at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:healthcare#Specialities_for_healthcare.3Dcounselling

Please discuss is it bad or OK at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:healthcare or tagging mailing list and potentially update description at wiki.

[jajajaneeneenee]

Hi! I am also missing an icon or text for healthcare=counselling. Especially because the german wiki says that all other objects of the healthcare tagging scheme (which are not "hospital", "clinic", "centre" or "doctor") are displayed by cartoCSS with a red dot! I counted on that and was surprised that it did not work with healthcare=counselling (to render on openstreetmap.org). I would have to change the tagging to healthcare=yes (which would be tagging for the renderer). The english wiki also says for the red dot: "other healthcare places".

And the value "counselling" is in the list of values on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:healthcare#Values. But only since March 2019, and the coding was in November 2018 (see below) ... bad ...

I think the problem comes from the decision in #3498, to restrict the rendering to the list of the documented values (see this comment in #3498) and the following discussion ...

The warnings that the code will have to be changed with new documented values in the wiki was ignored (or rejected). See these comments of Tomasz-W:

• Add rendering for healthcare tag scheme #3498 (comment)
• Unified rendering of healthcare objects #2938 (comment)

And healthcare=counselling is such a problem, as it was added in the wiki 03.03.2019 by Thetornado76 (and the rendering was implemented in November 2018)!

So if following the decisions in #3498, a rendering for healthcare=counselling should be added now .... At least this was the descision there (that any documented value should be added). And I would very much appreciate that. But I am new here at GitHub, and I don't know how to initiate such a change of the code. Could anyone do that? Or does it needs more discussion here? Or somewhere else?

And can this thread be added to the discussion in #3498 as areference? Like after this comment: #3498 (comment) I don't know if I could do that ...

Final note: IMHO it was a bad decision not to render a red dots for ALL values of healthcare=*, even if they are not documented in the wiki. Because the taglist shows a lot of good (but rarely used values) and the danger of bad values is not a good argument I would say ... Perhaps THIS should be discussed again (to open the rendering as a red dot for ALL values). And it would be much easier and avoid discussions like this one ...

[matkoniecz]

Especially because the german wiki says that all other objects of the healthcare tagging scheme (which are not "hospital", "clinic", "centre" or "doctor") are displayed by cartoCSS with a red dot!

That appears to be incorrect given that healthcare=counselling is not rendered.

I would have to change the tagging to healthcare=yes (which would be tagging for the renderer)

Yes, please do not remove correct data solely to change rendering.

[Adamant36]

IMHO it was a bad decision not to render a red dots for ALL values of healthcare=*, even if they are not documented in the wiki

I'm not sure where you got the idea that the only requirement for something is whether its documented in the wiki or not. There's a lot of other factors also, like real world tag usage, if the definition makes sense, and a bunch of other things. That goes for red dots as much as adding icons. Otherwise, a lot of other tags would already be rendered, not just those in healthcare=* domain. In general, anyone can create a Wiki page for anything. So its not that reliable and can't be the only deciding factor for things.

As far as counseling goes, I guess you could make the argument that its not any more generic or ambiguous than "clinic" or "hospital" is, and those things are rendered. That doesn't mean I'm in support of it though. Id be tempted to go the other way and that healthcare=clinic and healthcare=hospital should be removed instead in favor of more specific tagging schemes (their kind of like shop=yes to me. Which other people here have a problem with), but my opinion ultimately doesn't matter and its probably off topic anyway.

[jajajaneeneenee]

@matkoniecz: Yes it is incorrect, and I was also thinking about doing a correction in the wiki. At least the table of values at the beginning of the wiki page shows correctly that healthcare=counselling is NOT rendered, but I did not see this when doing he tagging – I first only read the text in the chapter „Rendering“ ....

(Perhaps it would be the best the people who do the coding of the cartoCSS also check and change the wiki, I don't know if this is the normal way or if it happend here.I guess, it is hard for other people who edit the wiki to find out what is rendered and not ... I took a look in the code on GitHub, but perhaps not everybody will dig that deep. And I don't know if there is an easier way.)

@Adamant36: Yes I got the idea. I was only trying to follow the argumentation in #3498 which was the core of the current situation ...

[Adamant36]

it is hard for other people who edit the wiki to find out what is rendered and not

Usually when something is render someone from here will almost immediately update the tags article to reflect it. Although it doesn't always happen that way. So its usually not an issue and you can generally conclude that if there is no rendering mentioned in the tags article that it isn't rendered.

Also, this isn't CartoCSS, its the Openstreetmap-Carto style. CartoCSS is just the programming language it uses to render things, but its not exclusive to this style and is only a part of what runs it. I made the same mistake myself when I started here.

Yes I got the idea. I was only trying to follow the argumentation in #3498

That's fine. I just thought clarify since you said you don't have much experience with things ;)

[jeisenbe]

Current usage is up to 234, almost 6 months later. https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/healthcare=counselling

I will close this issue for now. Consider documenting the tag with it's own wiki page, since currently it is only described as "healthcare counseling" on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:healthcare#Specialities_for_healthcare.3Dcounselling - so there is no clear definition.

We can reopen this issue if the tag is fully documented and discussed, and the usage increases further.

Also note that the key healthcare= will need to wait till after the next database reload for rendering.

[jeisenbe]

Now the tag is documented as "A facility where health counselling is provided, e.g. dietitian, nutrition, addiction” and usage has increased to 1 216 - however only 679 have a tag to specify the kind of counseling: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/healthcare:counselling - “dietitian”, “antenatal” and “addiction” counseling are quite different.