Create public forum for Matrix & Riot community talks in matrix.org website (945)

[matrixbot]

I know that Matrix developers in future want to implement something like community forum based on Matrix, not with any special forum engine. This is good idea, but not feasible at near future: there are too much work for implement all forum features in Matrix core.

But Matrix community need forum already now! Please implement forum now, using some popular forum engine, for example http://flarum.org/

Matrix is very useful solution for instant messaging and online group talking. But Matrix functional can't replace classic representation of static information like in forums:

• Matrix messages are instant, so they short and not too informative, even if people talking in specific room with topic - most of messages is unnecessary, like "ok, i try it". Because instant message means instant reply, not delayed.

• Classic forums provide another way for community talking - long delayed talk: author of each message don't hope to get instant reply to his message, so it spend more time to create content of message and group full info into one post.

As result, forum threads are more informative and readable to community, instead of instant chat logs.

Also forum html pages are successfully indexed via search engines, this give new users to Matrix community and provide good semantic search by forum content.

As I see, people now actively use GitHub Issues in Matrix community like forum threads, instead of Matrix rooms, because they want to talk not instantly, but delayed talks. And they use GitHub issues like forum threads for asking questions, discuss about feature requests, long talks about problems, etc. But GitHub Issues is not good place for those content.

So please don't wait distant future when Matrix implement all forum features in his core. Please install some forum engine for Matrix community now, and when Matrix core will be ready - we can replace forum core from old engine to Matrix.

(Imported from matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals#945)

(Reported by @MurzNN)

[richvdh]

Personally speaking, my main objection to hosting a forum would that it would be yet another thing the core team would end up having to moderate. We've got quite enough work to do as it is.

[MurzNN]

Moderating static forum threads is easier that read and online answer to very often instant messages in many support rooms. And forum will accumulate useful articles in Matrix Knowledge Base for easy searching (via internal search or google) and referencing.

Also this will help with moderating Matrix support rooms, because in rooms users asks popular questions every day again and again, so Matrix support need to answer and describe things every time again to each user directly. And this users want to hear answers from support instantly, not with 1-2 hour or more delay. So giving good support via Matrix rooms is harder that in forum.

And I totally understand the users, that asks popular easy questions every time in rooms - now they don't have place (such as forum) to search for his questions and find answers by himself, because manually searching answers to user questions between short messages in rooms like Matrix HQ or Riot is pain!

So all Matrix users at now have only one way to give answer for his question/problem - asks same questions to Matrix support via instant messages every day again and again.

Matrix have Github issues that describe some technical problems, but they must describe only real problems (bugs, feature requests, ideas, etc). If users begin to ask questions like "Why I am always offline?" as github issues - this will be pain for Matrix developers. But in Matrix forum you will can add sticky topic "Matrix presence is disabled now for performance reasons, so you see all users offline", all forum visitors will see it and part of those users will stops ask Matrix support about this every day (like now in Matrix HQ, Riot, and other rooms).

Another location for place useful Matrix articles is https://matrix.org/docs/guides/ and github projects matrix-doc & matrix-org. But for add some info we must create pull request. This is too hard for regular users and too hard for moderate, so those places are bad for community talking too.

So I think that Matrix Community Forum will be best place for community talking about Matrix.org. For decrease moderating responsibility you can name this as Community talking place (like "Synapse Support Community" room with topic "Get your Synapse questions answered by other Synapse users. This room is community-run, and not officially supported by the developers.") and with this you will not have to answer all questions and strictly moderate all topics.

[ghost]

@MurzNN thx, couldn't describe it better.

@richvdh I think we totally understand that developers have a lot to do with developing Matrix but why don't you ask your community to help moderating a forum? Why not a community forum hosted by Matrix but managed by the community?

Let me point on Seafile as "proof of concept": without https://forum.seafile.com/ I doubt that Seafile would be such a great FLOSS data cloud software today because you can find solutions for almost any problems related to the project there even as average user. Matrix HQ is a nice place for discussing further development but I doubt that a chat is a good choice for a stable and efficient long term support.

[ghost]

@MurzNN What about creating an own community forum? Interested?

@richvdh Would this be okay for you and would you link to such a forum?

[richvdh]

@richvdh Would this be okay for you and would you link to such a forum?

Absolutely!

[ghost]

@richvdh and what about (mis)using https://github.com/blog/2471-introducing-team-discussions as support forum? So it would be part of your current developing platform.

[bennypr0fane]

Until there is a proper forum, people are just gonna post issues here...

[ludwigbald]

A discourse instance would be awesome. I'm sure we can find enough volunteer moderators.

And it would be a low-resistance place to share knowledge. Matrix rooms are fine for ad-hoc questions, but I'm sure people would be willing to write lengthy forum posts about specific problems.

[bennypr0fane]

A discourse instance would be awesome. I'm sure we can find enough volunteer moderators.

And it would be a low-resistance place to share knowledge. Matrix rooms are fine for ad-hoc questions, but I'm sure people would be willing to write lengthy forum posts about specific problems.

Discourse is absolutely the best forum software, especially for IT products, and it would surely be the best solution for this.

[MurzNN]

@elmussol:elsmussols.net created Hubzilla channel for Matrix-related forums at https://elsmussols.net/channel/matrix

[MurzNN]

Other good solution for implement forums is Tapatalk project. They also have TAPx decentralized forums project, but seems it is dead now :(

And Spectrum is good solution too for forum-like discussions, in spite of this is "chat", because it have threads, indexable via search engines.

Also here is the room for discussing forums, based on Matrix: https://matrix.to/#/#forums-on:matrix.org

[ptman]

I agree that something on top of matrix would be best. But in the meantime there's a need. And it would probably be wise to avoid something that the matrix team has to maintain. There is https://old.reddit.com/r/matrixdotorg/ but since the federated alternative lemmy entered beta ( https://dev.lemmy.ml/post/41605 ) maybe it would make sense to host a forum there instead?

[MurzNN]

Seems this happens as https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/discussions ! 🎉

[bennypr0fane]

...only for server-side topics though (Synapse)? What we're looking for is a forum concerning all things Matrix, clients too, isn't it?

[strypey]

@ptman

it would probably be wise to avoid something that the matrix team has to maintain.

I want to see the wider tech community is to take matrix seriously as an open protocol, ie developed independently of the Element company. But if the Matrix.org team is the Element team with different hats on, that's much less likely. There needs to be a dedicated Matrix.org team with the capacity to run an independent standards organization, including hosting and moderating a range of community discussion spaces, using the right tools for the different organizational needs that come up. The SocialHub Discourse forum has allowed the ActivityPub community to self-organize pretty effectively over the last few years, despite the lack of a dedicated ActivityPub standards organization outside the slow-moving W3C standards processes. There's a good chance that standing up a Matrix.org Discourse forum would take more work off the Element team's collective shoulders than it adds, and provide another place for more general user/ developer discussions so they don't clutter up the issues boards here.

What we're looking for is a forum concerning all things Matrix, clients too, isn't it?

... and even beyond that, a forum for all discussions about the ongoing evolution of the matrix platform as a whole, including all kinds of software implementations (eg bridges and bots too), the standards process for the matrix protocol, and so on.

[askender]

I will build a forum/bbs client for matrix. So people can search messages in public rooms(with a CC license) using a search engine.
Didn't found it in https://matrix.org/clients/
Anyone interested in it?
related issue: element-hq/element-meta#1340
related repo: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-static

I'm also building a decentralized search engine (open source and open all metadata).

[MurzNN]

There is the Matrix-Static project, that can provide indexable pages with Matrix rooms, for example here: https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aview.matrix.org
But more powerful forum/bbs client for Matrix will be much better! Here https://matrix.to/#/#forums-on:matrix.org is the room about forums implementation based on Matrix.

[askender]

There is the Matrix-Static project, that can provide indexable pages with Matrix rooms, for example here: https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aview.matrix.org
But more powerful forum/bbs client for Matrix will be much better! Here https://matrix.to/#/#forums-on:matrix.org is the room about forums implementation based on Matrix.

Thanks a lot! I just found matrix-static seconds before you mention it. And I think I should digg the forums-on room to see what's the progress for now.

[RokeJulianLockhart]

Perhaps #1773 (comment) could be allowed in the meantime?

After all, where am I to ask a question like https://matrix.to/#/!YTvKGNlinIzlkMTVRl:matrix.org/$ZBhBE9gYcnFYpPg6pmDw7OrX6ALcV_joDSkBNNVTaoM?via=matrix.org&via=privacytools.io&via=mozilla.org?

Ah, Reddit.

[thibaultamartin]

The idea of a forum entirely makes sense to me. Unfortunately, we won't have enough resources in the medium term to deploy, maintain and moderate a forum for Matrix related questions. For now:

• https://matrix.org/docs/ should answer the questions frequently asked. If not it needs to be updated anyway
• A not entirely satisfactory workaround is use threads in Matrix rooms and either matrix.to or archive.matrix.org to refer to them publicly.

[ptman]

There is https://lemmy.ml/c/matrix now

[RokeJulianLockhart]

@thibaultamartin, because of #43 (comment):

Unfortunately, we won't have enough resources in the medium term to deploy, maintain and moderate a forum for Matrix related questions.

Shouldn't be close this as invalid rather than completed?

[RokeJulianLockhart]

@ptman, https://www.reddit.com/r/matrixdotorg/ existed too. The Lemmy forum probably isn't official in any sense either, right?

[strypey]

@thibaultamartin Great to hear there are plans for making a forum-a-like matrix client, but I agree with the reasons given by the OP that a forum-like view of a chat room does not and cannot serve the same purpose as a static forum;

• Matrix messages are instant, so they short and not too informative, even if people talking in specific room with topic - most of messages is unnecessary, like "ok, i try it". Because instant message means instant reply, not delayed.

• Classic forums provide another way for community talking - long delayed talk: author of each message don't hope to get instant reply to his message, so it spend more time to create content of message and group full info into one post.

As result, forum threads are more informative and readable to community, instead of instant chat logs.

An official forum could be created without adding any server admin work for the matrix team, by turning on the HitGub forum for the matrix-org organisation, as suggested by @RokeJulianLockhart . Or if you wanted to avoid further HitGub lock-in (a good plan), you could simply nominate a Lemmy community or KBin magazine as the "official" forum, by linking it from matrix.org.

If the concern is moderation burden, then say so, and let's discuss how to ensure sufficient volunteers mods from among the community who wants to use a forum.

[bennypr0fane]

The idea of a forum entirely makes sense to me. Unfortunately, we won't have enough resources in the medium term to deploy, maintain and moderate a forum for Matrix related questions. For now:

* https://matrix.org/docs/ should answer the questions frequently asked. If not it needs to be updated anyway

* A not entirely satisfactory workaround is use threads in Matrix rooms and either matrix.to or archive.matrix.org to refer to them publicly.

What about the multiple suggestions in this thread to request help from the community and entrust established community volunteers with moderation? Done right, it need not necessarily require any resources from Matrix team other than some hosting. Could we kindly get a comment on this proposed solution?